Thanks for the reply.

There are so many implications of eating anything, I think the best we can do is be informed.

Are vegetarians/vegans inadvertently killing more small animals, birds. and bugs (ecosystems) in wheat fields than a carnivore that sources cows grazing on green pastures until death? For the carnivores, 1 cow can feed a person or a few people for a long time, however something like a chicken is only a meal. 1 tuna provides a lot of meat, but 1 shrimp is just a bite. When talking sheer numbers, I think some ethical decisions can be made here.

But an elephant would be a lot of meat (if not endangered). Pork is probably one of the cheapest and widely available meats around.

But these animals are smart. Pigs are smarter than dogs, and their skin and other organs have been used in transplants for humans. You mentioned crows, I mentioned octopi. These animals are very clever.

Locally sourced is nice, but there are ruminants all over the midwest and northern states — but there are no people. There are large cities with no farms either, so I think a compromise is probably in order.

Then you have stuff like red palm oil. The good companies harvest it sustainably, while others take away the rain forest and kill orangutans.

Everything we do has consequences, and I think we should be mindful of what we put in our mouths, whether it is meat, vegetables, wheat, soy, corn…

I agree with everything you say, but not the calorie count of beef or meat in general. It’s actually lower than I think you would expect.

Check this link, and move the serving size selection to 100 grams.

http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/beef-products/10526/2

That is four ounces of grass-fed ground beef, coming in at 192 calories. That’s not much man. That’s the same or less as a couple pieces of fruit or 2-3 slices of bread, yet delivers a much different nutritional profile. Even grain-fed isn’t that much higher (granted it is, and there are more toxins and high omega-6). Even if I eat a pound of it (which I do sometimes), I’m under 900 calories. A big meal, yes, but considering I burn about 3000+ a day (and your average joe 2500), it’s relative contribution is welcome, not overconsumption. I go easy on the potatoes (at times), and I stay lean, no problem. I don’t necessarily recommend a pound of meat to your average joe, but certainly a 6-8 oz serving isn’t likely to tip the scales in a GOOD diet (if it’s loaded with tons of sugar and junk, well, it might, but I’d ditch the sugar and junk first).

Same goes for most meats. Even a full cup (250 ml) of solid butter comes in at only 1628 calories. Couple that with the fact that there is no modern proof that dietary fat and/or cholesterol contribute to heart disease in and of themselves, and I think it will paint a different picture.

Anyway – if you’d like to converse further, let’s move it to email. You can get me at [email protected]

I really appreciate you reading and commenting!

Regarding pescetarian versus vegetarian. Definitely agree, fish, scallops, prawns are animals. Guilty as charged, I’m not a vegetarian. When I say it mostly comes off as vegetarian, it’s because I’m inherently lazy, and my vegetarian wife does most of the meal planning. Which means I only really eat fish when: 1. We go to a restaurant and I order fish or eat at someone’s house who is serving fish or 2. I get my butt in gear and plan a meal that involves fish (rare). Those events usually translate to once about once a month, maybe twice. My diet also includes eggs and dairy.

I use the word vegetarian because it’s way easier to describe what my diet is the majority of the days of the year. Few people know what a pescetarian is, let alone a vegetarian. One time when I said I was vegetarian I was asked by a health care worker with a university degree, “So do you eat chicken?”

Anyways… enough about me. A better example of someone who thrives by all sense of the definition as a vegetarian is my wife, who has been one in the true sense of the word for almost 3 years now. She would argue she’s never felt better, stronger, healthier. I would agree.

Now going back to my statement and your response:

“because a diet without meat for them would be far healthier than a diet with meat, provided they sourced the micronutrients that aren’t present in meat”

“Why is that? Throw a little grass-fed beef or pastured chicken in there and it becomes less healthy? I don’t see why. Do you have any proof? I would disagree.”

There are I think two types of populations that we’re referring to. Those who are truly pursuing health in their diet, and those who are generally eating. I come into contact regarding diet advice with more of the second type. I would agree throw in “a little” grass-fed beef or pastured chicken and it doesn’t become unhealthy. The problem is the definition of a little in North America. I think you and I may agree on the definition of a little, but the majority of our country wouldn’t. More important than the micronutrient argument to most people is the calorie argument. A simple equation of calories in needs to equal calories expended, and so many of us have trouble meeting that calories expended. And so I think for a good lot of people, a great way to do this is to incorporate more vegetarian meals into their diet because the amount of meat that is added in the form of mostly beef and chicken contributes to the calorie count by quite a bit.

It’s alone the same lines with regards to red meat. While I’ve seen the odd article attempting to link red meat to heart disease and colon cancer, none of this has yet been convincing or methodologically sound. My argument is that red meat packs so much more calories, fat, cholesterol per serving that it leads to overindulgence. I’ve never seen a 2 ounce steak served to anyone not at the kids table, when I think it’s more appropriate to an adult portion.

The red meat calorie argument of mine extends into the local sourcing of food. For instance, it’s not uncommon to see the small family of four suggest that they’ve bought a local half a cow or quarter of a cow for the winter. Then I realize how many calories are packed into that freezer of theirs. Or the hunter who shoots his quota deer or a moose, and is eating meat for even their afternoon snack because it’s there. I’m not sure that the sheer calories consumed equals more health and in some ways it causes me to wonder whether the portions are leading to increased risk of heart disease.

I’m thrilled though that with health food stores and local butchers sourcing local meat, it’s becoming easier than ever to grab reasonable portions of grass-fed beef. Which is why I’m thrilled to see your next article about sourcing animal products….

First off, I would only ever eat a human in an emergency situation, Alive (the movie) style. If they were already dead, and that’s all there was to survive. Even then, it would be super hard to do. Also, I would actively avoid eating endangered species. That would have too great an impact on the ecosystem, I would think.

I think eating lower on the food chain makes sense, and I am personally much more comfortable with it. The species on the lower end of the food chain are generally much less evolved, and *probably* are just running off instinct anyway. Lower level fish (salmon, sardines, trout), and smaller birds (especially turkeys and chickens, not crows) I am totally fine eating. No question.

When it comes to mammals, I have often noticed that people seem comfortable eating herbivores (deer, rabbits, cattle), and some omnivores (chickens, pigs), but not carnivores (lions, tigers, wolves). That being said, there are exceptions.

I’d also point to my discussion above where I mention that our grain production is responsible for a ton of death as well. I’m not sure where to draw the line there. I think a mix of plants and animals is the answer, for now anyway.

Please Shane – what are these other philosophical reasons you speak of? Please share if you are comfortable.

First off – I really tried to avoid using the word “meat” in this article, and I probably should have explained why (though, these articles tend to get WAY too long). Meat is only one animal product. There’s also gelatin (good for photo aging, see my last article), fat, and several highly nutritious organs that are generally ignored these days. I’ve come to embrace them (except for kidneys…I will get to those). I also tried to say “animal products” as well to incorporate dairy, eggs, and the like. I’ll talk about that in the next post in this series.

Second – to be sure, I’m also a huge fan of veggies and fruits (see previous post in this series), but I do see the benefits to animal products in the human diet (flesh included).

Third – I neglected to provide my definition of “thrive”. I remember our glory days pumping iron 5 days a week. As I got older (it happened…), it really started to wear me down, and my recovery and immune system suffered. I fought it for a while, but eventually I had to admit it was too much. I wasn’t thriving. I felt weak a lot of the time, and caught quite a few colds. I still lift, but it’s more like 0-3x a week now (usually 2), and I don’t look to make a ton of gains as I have other athletic and non-athletic pursuits that I now prefer. That being said, with the more relaxed schedule including lots of rest and recovery, I am bigger and stronger than ever (not elite, but decent). But hey – that’s just my goal. I won’t force that on anyone, but I will teach those that want to listen. I dig that your athletic priorities are surfing and mountain biking, and I can see why you’d want to avoid excess muscle while still maintaining sufficient strength.

I like your definition of thrive (or most people’s, as you say), but I’d also add things like good body composition, great athletic performance, great skin, good mental health, the ability to withstand stress, high fertility, longevity, and the avoidance of chronic diseases. I’m sure there’s a few more I could add too.

Now, I’m going to address a few things in your comments.

“because a diet without meat for them would be far healthier than a diet with meat, provided they sourced the micronutrients that aren’t present in meat”

I’m going to take the second part of that sentence as “provided they source micronutrients normally obtained from meat from a plant source”, or something to that effect.

Why is that? Throw a little grass-fed beef or pastured chicken in there and it becomes less healthy? I don’t see why. Do you have any proof? I would disagree. See above.

“Side note: I’ve been ocean wise pescetarian (but mostly this translates as vegetarian) now for just over a year to prove a point. We don’t need meat to be strong and healthy, and we can thrive on it.”

I agree with you that this usually comes off as vegetarian. In truth, that’s what I was from 17-19 (less ocean-wise, I’m sure), and I called myself vegetarian. A fish is an animal, period. I’m not judging AT ALL, but I think you’ll agree here. Fish are highly nutritious bro! I’m glad you’ve stayed strong. I hope it stays that way for a long time.

“Avoid red meat”

Even if it’s local and grass-fed? Why?

Again – I’m just exploring the discussion further. Great to hear from you. Sounds like you’re doing well. No need to respond, you busy guy.

I really appreciate you commenting!

What about the (other ethical) philosophical reasons of eating/not eating meat?

A couple thoughts:

-Regarding your definition of “Thrive”. For most people, thriving is not what you and I were doing in the science venture era 5 afternoons a week at the gym. For most people thriving is going to work and doing their activities while feeling good. I would argue that with the meat overconsumption of most people these days, they would actually thrive by consuming a vegetarian diet, because a diet without meat for them would be far healthier than a diet with meat, provided they sourced the micronutrients that aren’t present in meat.

-I’ve geared my workouts now more towards thriving in my activities and less towards building muscle. My two main-activities that influence this: Surfing and mountain biking. To this extent, building muscle mass can be detrimental. Professional surfers look towards increasing core strength and cardio without adding mass.

Side note: I’ve been ocean wise pescetarian (but mostly this translates as vegetarian) now for just over a year to prove a point. We don’t need meat to be strong and healthy, and we can thrive on it.

My ideal diet for health, taste, and ethics both environmentally and for ethical treatment: Find locally raised birds, eat them once or twice a month. Avoid red meat. Eat only sustainable seafood in moderation, again once or twice a month.

Looking forward to the next article…